Addiction & The Bible: Conversation with Pastor Brian

Sarah Annie Schneider: Welcome to the Addicted to God Podcast. I'm your host and Bible mentor, Sarah Schneider, and I am addicted to God. Addicted to God is a community of imperfect people who are pursuing a deeper, more intimate relationship with God. For over 20 years, I have been on my own Addicted to God journey. This movement was inspired by the hundreds of incarcerated women whom I have had the privilege of mentoring in my local jail. The more I learned about their addictive behaviors, the more I realized that my zeal to know God's word isn't that much different from their uncontrollable desire to use their drug of choice. So in a nutshell, addicted to God is where we transfer the unhealthy, unsatisfying, and destructive habits and choices to the freedom and fulfillment that can only come from the one and only healthy addiction, and that's God and his limitless word. So I ask that you would share this podcast so we can end addictions, encourage the defeated, and help anyone who wants to have a relationship with God but doesn't know where to start. So let's get addicted to God together. Today is a very special episode, particularly because it is one I have dreamed of since before even beginning the Addicted to God podcast, and that is to host my senior pastor of Alliance Church. here in Appleton, Wisconsin, because I have always felt ill equipped to bring God's message forward through this podcast simply because I'm not a seminary graduate, a Bible scholar, or anything that would give me the credentials to love Jesus like I do. I'm just a girl who loves Jesus. So Pastor Brian, thank you so much for joining me today. It is an honor to have you on the Addicted to God pod. it's a joy, Sarah, I really believe that People so far in front of the line in heaven will probably also not have divs and doctorate degrees that are the the the the quiet heroes of the faith that have probably made more deposits than those on the on the platform sometimes, you know. That's how God works. He does. He uses the the behind the scenes, just the girls, just the just the kids, the unsung heroes. And Jesus said that, right? Those were his exact words. He didn't come to be the king of the world in the context or the expectation that they thought they were going to be having a king. He came to serve and to meet people where they are. Our highest ambition should be to serve at the lowest level. Yeah. Yeah. I can't wait to get into it. So first of all, let's make that introduction. I would love to learn a little bit more about you and have you introduce yourself and how long you've been in the pastoral ministry. A little bit about your background. Yeah, I grew up in the local church in a way. My dad was a senior pastor and so I got involved in volunteering earlier than all the other kids. I don't know why why I was allowed to, other than my last name maybe, but I was a I was a youth leader as a kid, and I love the local church and and the older I get the more I realize how unfortunately rare that is that kids grow up in the church as parents in ministry and their experiences are not the same as mine. I mean I had wonderful congregations growing up in both in New Jersey and then here in Wisconsin. And so, when I went to college, I studied ministry 'cause I just l I loved it. I wasn't planning on going into vocational ministry at graduation. there was a little bit of me running from it. I knew that I loved it. I knew I would love to do it. and I even sensed that it was a part of my future story somewhere. I just was lured away by the intrigue of I wanted I wanted a business card that people that the world thought would be cool. And I just wanted to to lead and do things that were, you know, society felt were were very intriguing and cool. So I I considered law school and and going that route. but the economy crashed in 2008 when I graduated. so I was forced into a life of stand-up comedy. And I traveled around and and told jokes for a little bit and then I and then I needed something that had insurance. and I was in love with Hannah at the time, my wife. So I knew that I needed to somehow create some stability in my life. Starbucks, I couldn't get the job there. I applied everywhere and I eventually wound up at a local company where I was there for three years. And then that call to ministry, that vocational call, I just couldn't ignore it anymore. And God let me have that taste of the business world and the intrigue of leadership in the business world a little bit. But through a number of circumstances and and one of being my wife Hannah, who I was married to at the time for about a year, God really made it clear there was a real call to vocational full time ministry and I couldn't ignore it anymore. so I began to pursue that calling and one thing led to another that I did not plan on and I ended up as a youth pastor at my dad's church. I thought that was gonna be a short term thing to kinda help them get through a season of needing a youth pastor. And then here we are 15 years later. And been demoted since to senior pastor. So I'm still secretly a youth pastor though, infiltrating the upper echelons of leadership of the church to that's a good to increase the youth ministry budget every year. I do love that. And as you're sharing your story, it resembles so many of our stories in that we have this plan. Yeah this vision of our lives and so much of it is buffered in the world's perception of what success looks like. wouldn't you know God would send a economic recession to redirect you into ministry. Yeah, the story of my life has been God's kindness in closing doors. there's there's the same amount of grace and affection I have for my kids in a no as I do a yes. You know, when I tell my kids no, I don't love them any less. In fact, it's my it's my love that's compelling me to tell them no to whatever they're asking. 'Cause sometimes it's really detrimental for them. and and that's been my story with God. And it's it's no wonder that most of my requests to God are met with no. You know, that's i the same with my kids. Like, most of what my children ask for, I is like, no, you can't have gummy bears for dinner. And the delta between my own intellect and rational thinking ability and my kids is far smaller than my rational thinking and the the Almighty God. So wouldn't it make sense then that most of what I think is good for me and and what my career path should be and what I want is is probably not accurate. And that's a tender thing to say, 'cause I know on the other side of this podcast are a lot of listeners who have a whole lot of unanswered prayers. And and that's tender and and God does want us to ask. He wants us to bring our request to him. That's a commandment. And and the the point in doing that isn't so that God can happily have his finger on the no button, but it is to shape us. prayer is that dialogue with God that as we bring our request to him, he gives us new new desires, he alters them and he shows us who he is through the journey of walking out life with a life of prayer. Anyway, little detour there, but yes, recessions and closed doors have been the story of God bringing me in his grace to the places I need to be. I love that you share that. I've actually learned myself and I've coined the phrase, God's rejection is my protection because he has a better path, bigger plan, and ultimate purpose for withholding something that I felt I wanted, needed, or deserved. If God can do more than we can ask or imagine, then at any given point our imaginations are actually in the way. They're at any given point our imaginations are in the way of what God wants to do because He can do more than what they offer us, what our imaginations even give us. And so it is a it is a a tender thing, but it is that's a great way to put it. his rejection is our protection. Yeah. One of the reasons I was so inspired to have you and host you on this podcast is because you and I have had dialogue over the years about our hearts for people who are entrapped in addictions. And you on several occasions have shared your own interactions with people you've deeply cared about that you've seen addictions destroy their lives. So What I really want to dig into today is understanding the biblical view of addiction. I know that word's not in there, but I know there's some teaching that God has to say about addictions and strongholds. please share how should Christians think about addiction differently than the world does? Because the world makes addiction bad. It's a bad thing. And I get a lot of pushback even on the title of this podcast that maybe I should revisit that word and soften it, make it a little bit more culturally accepted. But this is God's message. And so I really want to put that perspective out there about whatever it describes as addictions, and then help listeners understand that pivoting that to God is really the best decision we can make in our lives. Yeah, when God creates Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, in Genesis, the first concept that comes to mind when he's describing this new creature that they're gonna make, that the Trinity, that the triangod is gonna make that God's gonna make in the Garden of Eden, the first concept that comes to describe our role in creation is dominion and rulership and to rule creation. And that is abdicated and given up whenever we serve or worship anything in creation other than the creator. the moment we take a substance, use creation for pleasure and we we worship the the pleasure it gives us, whenever that happens, we give up our rightful place in creation to rule it. Whenever something supplants God as our God, we give up that. So we really should only serve and only worship and only adore and only truly be captivated by at the soul level God. Everything else shouldn't take that place. That's why the first commandment in in the Ten Commandments is to have no other gods. before me. In a sense, the rest of the nine kind of flow out of that. because we are creatures that have this propensity, we have the raw material of sin in all of us to make a God out of something in creation. And that people would describe that as addiction. And so the real tragedy of this is that when we make a God out of a creation versus the creator God. we actually give up not only the right to look like, you know, kind of reflect the image of God in dominion, but just in general. We give up our true picture of the image of God and what humanity should look like. this is why in Psalm one fifteen there's this very descriptive language around people who worship idols. It actually says they become like them, they can't talk. think of an ancient wooden idol. if if you were to worship that idol, the scripture's describing the outcome of that is that you begin to look like the idol where you have eyes but can't see, you have a mouth but can't talk, you have ears but can't hear. And the the maybe more modern expression of that is when someone is addicted to a substance. It makes their world very small, right? it requires them to give up so much humanity to chase that next hit and that next high. And an example of this would be parents, woefully neglecting their children to get that next high or leaving them in the in the parking lot of a bar while they go in. You know, we would look at that and say, that's inhuman, right? but that's what addiction does. It robs us of our humanity. It becomes this idol that makes us we start to look like that. We we become like animals. And and that's why if you want to use the word addicted to God or worshiping, if you wanna use whether you worship this God or that god, worshiping God, the true God, is the only way that we find our true humanity and begin to look like humans and people. And remember beasts, of the earth, the the creatures of the earth, they they only pursue their appetites and comfort. they writhe and scream when they're uncomfortable. there's a there's you know, farmers that take care of their animals that have to, give shots or or, cut cysts off of them that are potentially dangerous, or these things that like the animals scream and yell in pain because all they want is this this comfort and pleasure. And what makes humans human is we know that when God has to prune us or when he has to do things to us and rob us of our comfort sometimes because he's trying to protect us from addiction or making an making an idol out of that substance or whatever it is. we know w we have a level of sophistication in our humanity that says, This is for my good, my ultimate good. And so the the Bible has all kinds of warnings against worshiping idols or becoming addicted to creation and neglecting our proper place of Of ruling that by worshiping only God. and I would put that in two camps. Like Christians don't have addictions, but yet bad people do. People who go to jail are addicts, or in recovery or people who seek sobriety or have a problem, that homeless beggar on the corner with the brown bag kind of thing. Like we have these stereotypes. What would you say with regard to pastoring over the years and even counseling individuals that are trapped in those destructive cycles? You know, one of my friends, Pastor Mark Techmeyer, been a bit of a mentor for me and he's also a licensed therapist as well as a licensed pastor. you know, that DSM booklet is so thick. You could put anybody in his office, he would say. And he'll find us something in those pages to diagnose them with. I mean, we all have the raw material to build an idol out of something. is it Pastor Tim Keller talked about our hearts as idol factories. they're always looking to worship. We're made we're made to worship. And so, with our brokenness and and our sin nature, we drift and we we don't drift toward worshiping God. That is a a built in reality to the sin nature is we have the drift and it doesn't drift toward things that are good for us. It you know, I always use the analogy. I don't I don't drift toward eating a salad. I drift toward Taco Bell and Doritos on my couch watching Netflix. I don't ever drift toward working out. And and I I wanna say as a Christian, the part of the hope and the good news of the gospel is sanctification. That's the gift of salvation, is actually that we're we're saved by grace, but then we're not paralyzed by it. There is there is the hope of progress and change. And part of that change is that that drift begins to lessen in some areas and it begins to grow in the right areas. you talked about this yourself that there's a growing appetite for scripture that happens in the life of a believer. but the remnant of the sin nature is still there and it's always looking i that's why, It's just it's described as a as this crouching animal that wants to it's always prowling and it's so subtle, Sarah. It is so subtle. The subtlety of sin is I think what what gets people i Satan never just comes right out and and necessarily tells a lie. He gives a bunch of truths that he twists together to make into a lie. that's why he's the deceiver. Deceit is different than lying. A lie is the opposite of truth. deceit is a lie with truth sewn into it to make it look like a truth. It's so subtle. and so the I the idea that we don't have this this crouching tiger in our life that is looking to devour us, that we don't have this subtle drift that we have to constantly flee from, fleeing from temptation the way the New Testament talks about it. So it's just foolish. you know, it's it's the proverbs where it talks about the young man that just wanders by the the house of the promiscuous woman and thinking I'm gonna be fine and just that foolishness. And there needs to be in the life of a sanctified believer a a healthy humility that recognizes I am very capable of whatever I'm looking at in that person's life, whatever they have, whatever they're dealing with. That's that's the before I can address the speck in their eye, I have to recognize I have I have a world of hurt in my own and I'm very capable of whatever I'm about to pull out of their eye. I'm very capable of having that. so that that level of humility is the requirement for even helping people in addiction, helping people in their sin. Is you're required to recognize that you are fully capable of being in their spot, if not for the grace of God and his daily daily grace. I I'll end with this. I have this kind of picture in my mind every morning when I get up and go to my time to read the Bible and spend time with the Lord. And it's a picture of me standing at the base of the Red Sea, the walls of the water on both sides, fish of the swimming in it, and God's parting my Red Sea and his dry ground in front of me. And he's holding with his hands the walls of water up. But instead of water, it's just my own propensity for self destruction and sin. It's my own self destructive habits and and And I just see him there holding it up and I go, Lord, I'm gonna run through this for one more day. Can you do it again? Can you just hold it up one more day by your grace? it is truly the godliest, most mature people in my life would say that they are not only saved by grace, but grown by grace. lest no one should boast. So the the maturest Christians in the world I know are the most humble people who recognize that I would be right where that addict is, if not for the grace of God. Yes. And I'm stuck For clarity, DMS when you were DMS, yeah. What is that? DSM. I think that's the diagnosis manual. okay. every year they publish a new version, roughly every year to to make sure that the the list of mental diseases or mental illnesses that we we can acquire in life are properly defined and the book is ever increasing in thickness. so it's you know, you have to when you study to be a therapist, you kinda have to know how to utilize that tool to to give a diagnosis to a mental in this. Yeah. Thanks for the clarity. I assumed it had something to do with that space and thank God people are called into that space because we do need great biblical counselors, undoubtedly. Yeah. As I'm listening to you share, I'm thinking, how can people transfer that worldly addiction, that sinful pleasure, the propensity we have to worship what we choose to God? Yeah. Like the thesis of this podcast, we want to transfer these things that the world makes easy and accessible versus the pursuit of God and making him your all in all. You know, religion has a long history of trying to use guilt to do it. the problem with guilt and the pressure of, you know, just try harder and your own will power. guilt is an external pressure. but what is required to take our rightful place is having kind of being under shepherds or rulers over Over the creation and not being subjugated to it in addiction. what's required in that is an internal pressure, an internal transformation is required. guilt is often this external thing. And I'm not saying that there's not a healthy level of conviction that we need to feel with our sin, that that's a that's a role the Holy Spirit plays. but there's a fundamental brokenness. as much as we're responsible for our actions and decisions. and that's a very important realization to come to. Other you know, otherwise you're just a victim tossed on the sea of whatever. I mean, that's hopeless. But but you do have agency and you are responsible for your sin. There's also a reality that you have a sin nature. There's a brokenness in you. And that drift that I was talking about earlier that has to be addressed at the at the soul level. so fundamentally, everybody needs an encounter with the living God through Christ. And that can be through an experience of circumstances, an encounter with there's maybe a person in your life or or a encounter with God through the church or through some sort of encounter with scripture, but it has to be truth as well. It's it's you know, grace and truth. We're saved by grace, which is a free gift of God, but it also is an encounter with truth, that Jesus is the only way. To be made right with God and that He has to, He has to open your eyes to that. One of his recurring miracles is giving sight to the blind. And that's he's trying to tell us spiritually he has to do that. He has to barge into your life, open your eyes to the reality of your need for him. That you can't just willpower your way through your problems. You can't just guilt your way through life trying to try harder the next time. You need to you need to meet the one who can save you. You need a savior. You don't just need an example of a list of things you need to do. you know, the one of the passages of scripture that's so profound for me, and this is in Hebrews 12, where it describes Jesus as both the author and perfecter. most religions have an author. they have a a person who created the religion, told everybody, well, here's what you do, follow my example, do this list. Jesus does the authoring. He says, Here's what you need to do, here's the list, here's the Ten Commandments. And then he looks at you. He goes, Okay, you're he can't do it, can you? And you go, No, we can't. We keep trying, we can't do it. So he goes, Okay, tell you what I'm gonna do, I'm gonna perfect it. I'm gonna author this religion, and then I'm going to perfect it. I'm going to live the life that you should live, and then I'm going to die the death that pays for all the things you didn't do. And I'm going to perfect it. You will be made perfect through me. and your faith and trust in me and the free gift of my grace that comes as a result of the cross. So I that may not be the simplest answer to your question, Sarah, but I there's a there's a well-rounded, full orbed picture of the gospel that doesn't always fit inside of a tweet. But the but the reality is is this person has to have that fundamental transformation that comes with their eyes being opened. And then what'll happen, and what'll be the redemptive story, is that the Holy Spirit of God is deposited in this person. somehow we become containers. Of the third person, the Trinity. I I don't even understand physiologically, theologically how that all works, but but this mysterious, profound transformation happens where we become containers of the Holy Spirit. And that drift does begin to shift and erode over time and eventually goes away completely in eternity in heaven. So how that happens is that God creates an appetite. He creates a new appetite in you. And it is for him. And you can stifle it, you can reject it, you can you can kind of pinch it, but it will always be there and it will it will constantly bother you that you're not feeding it. And so, this is in large part Jeremiah twenty nine says this, I think it's verse thirty-five where it says, God says, Seek me with all your heart and you'll find me and it's maybe best translated i there's not really a English semantics way to do or linguistic way to do this, but the the Translation there is is never stop seeking me and then you'll find me. You know, this this keep seeking. That's like the appetite of an addict, right? Never stop seeking and then you actually find. It's kind of an oxymoron, right? As soon as you seek it and you find it, you're like, I found it. Well, you lost it. but if you if you're seeking it and you you're constantly looking for it, looking for it, looking, that's actually when you found it. It's a weird way to say it. To me, that's the addiction. That that is the appetite, the addiction toward God. And you're reminding me of Proverbs two, which is a verse that as I became acquainted with the Bible, just jumped off the page that says, If you look for me as for silver and search as for hidden treasure, then you will find the fear of the Lord and the knowledge of God. And I'm like when I read that I was like, That's yeah, that's me. Like I didn't pray about Pretty prayer and say, Jesus, come into my heart, give me the Holy Spirit. I'm sorry for my sins and I confess that I need you. No, I was more like, I'm confused. I don't know who you are. I've been told what to believe based on how I was raised. And now I need to be responsible for these kids that I need to figure you out. And that's where my seeking began. And to your point, boy, did I find him. He became so vividly clear. But I didn't get that going to church every Sunday. I didn't get that from, listening to people that had great andotes to how I could be a better person. I got it through that seeking. I really emphasize the importance of seeking, but I also find that to be my why I'm addicted to God. Yeah. It gets me out of bed every morning to go to his word and be like, What are you gonna teach me today? That just blows my mind. Yeah. It it's blessed are those who hunger for righteousness because they'll be satisfied. So it's this as soon as you're no longer hungry, like, I'm good, I'm full. Well, now you're not hungry. Now you're not, you know, there's no blessing in that. And you're you're not you're actually not hungry anymore. You need to keep staying hungry for righteousness the other thing I would tell people is and this is a little bit of a book reference here. James K.A. Smith wrote a book called You Are What You Love. And I'll summarize a lot of it. It opened my eyes to the fact of how important your daily practices are in cultivating those appetites. if you want something to take over your life, nothing will take over your life that you don't do every day. nothing will take over your life, unless you do it every single day. You you want anything to take over your life. That has to happen. I mean, that's why even the early church, they they met daily in the temple courts. I mean, there was like a daily practice of God's people interacting with his word and each other and the practices of of the gospel. And so there there has to be a daily cadence to it. So the the idea behind that book is that you can actually with this idea, you can you can change what you love. you are what you love. You can change what you love. And so, the example is this is running. Everybody goes out for their run on their first day, like I'm gonna get in shape this year, I'm gonna go on a run, and they hate it. They hate they hate when they start it, they hate doing it, and then they hate when it's over, they feel terrible the next day, right? Their legs are sore. but if you do it every day, you eventually get to a point where you will move heaven and earth to not miss your run. you will cancel fun things to get that run in. it you can do this, you can build, and he uses this term liturgy. It's just a kind of a religious concept, but it's the idea of building daily liturgies. If worship is supposed to be something we do daily, not just on Sundays, then what are your daily liturgies of the worship service that you live daily? and as you define those, and this gets into a little bit of some, you know, there's some truth to the power of habit. Charles Dewey gets a good book, building new habit loops. You know, as you build And think really deeply about your daily liturgies and about the the the people and the places and the environment that you're putting yourself in. And as you attack that and you start to put in new ones based on scripture and what you want in your life, math just maths. This is the way God made us. He made us products of our daily habits and environments. It will start to change what you love. You'll start to change your life. So, I just encourage people to really Think deeply about what do you daily? What you reach for from the fridge when you come home every day from work? What do you what is that? that's why, you know, fasting, I've implemented this in my life, seasonal fasts. It's a way for you to audit your loves. Audit your loves. Do you just take every 90 days, pull something out of your life and just fast it and just to just to reset that baseline of what you're building your liturgy around. some of the biggest alterations to my life have come through just taking a break from certain practices and environments. I mean, to end here, there there's something spiritual that is reflective in nature as well. You know, when when you go into an in a humid environment like today in Wisconsin here, I'm told I don't have hair, but I'm told that your hair gets curly. so, you know, my wife's always like, it's humid today and my hair's gonna look different and get curly. Environment changes us. And and so changing your environments, looking at your liturgies, this isn't just a a gimmicky atomic habits tip. This is there's something in the way God made us to build practices in our life that can alter our loves. So good. So good. And that's probably a great segue to the next question I have, which is what advice do you have for people starting out on this journey of pursuing. Something other than the things of the world. Yeah. Yeah. I do think few liturgies affect us more deeply than the people we choose to spend our time with and how we spend the time with them. you know, it's a little bit of a Pinteresty statement, the by now the show me your friends, I'll show your future. But this is why there's so much caution in the book of Proverbs around the type of people you're gonna live life with. You know, I I I think if you're going to be a Christ follower, you have to have people who are far from God in your life. I I think he he threw himself toward people who are far from God. But he reserved his closest seats for his disciples, the people that he truly walked daily through life with and spent the most time with, especially those sacred moments around the campfire at night. I mean, those are those are reserved for people who l who are at least pursuing God and love God. as the disciples did. And they were far from perfect, but they just they they were something there was an appetite in them. and so, they had done what, you know, the was it Luke fifteen, the the the pearl of great price. You know, they had sold everything for for the king the kingdom of God is like a man who finds a pearl and sells everything. I mean they were so, you know, addicted or or just i compelled by the idea of God that they had sold everything for pursuing who they thought was leading them to God, which was Christ. And so Jesus spent time with those people who were sold out. So I would say find the people in your life who are sold out, who have sold everything and just and nestle up in their life and spend time with them and get into their life and it and it will. It'll start to change you. that'll be the biggest alteration to your liturgy I think that you could make. That's why, you know the the description of being a part of the church, the description of the church is, so intimate, like a body. Like we're that close. my my pinky toe, when I when I stub my pinky toe on the side of the coffee table, which is like for some reason the most painful thing I can do every day, my whole body knows that that happened. But it was a very small part of my body. Amazing how you don't notice it until it's hurting, right? Yeah, but it's because we're that intimate. Right. And so just finding yours getting that intimate with the body of Christ especially with people who are truly sold out for him, that represent that the best of that is a great start in place. I particularly love that you emphasize that because so many times, and I'm even guilty of this in mentoring women or men to say, start with a good Bible church and open your Bible every day. you know, basically these disciplines or these affiliations, but relationship is essential. I have learned to use the phrase as you're developing your relationship with Christ, find somebody behind you, beside you, and before you. And early on, the before you and besides you are very important. Before you because they can model it, they can teach it, they can disciple, they can guide, they can basically tell you where the potholes are and what to watch out for. The beside you is, hey, I'm in the muck with you. I'm doing this, I'm figuring it out right alongside of you. And the behind you is commanded of scripture that the older will, train up the younger. But initially, when you're still figuring it out for yourself, the beside you might be just what you're modeling to your spouse or your children because of the transformation taking place in you. But now I'm at a point in my life where I want to pour into the younger generation and bring them up behind me so that they can. benefit from all the blessings I have witnessed God do in my life for being hungry for his words. So Sarah, that is such a profound description of the way Paul describes the church, which is we're we're all bricks in the temple. We were a temple of of the Holy Spirit. We're a temple of God. In that the the actual place where God's activity and where he's gonna do his ministry is through the through the church. And that level of intimacy of having think about a brick in a building. Like you have bricks on top of you, you have bricks below you, you have bricks on next to you. And that is the picture of the church because we need all of those for for growth. I would tell people, don't find a small group a Bible study of people that are at your level. Find a small group where everybody's at different places spiritually because that's what that's what the body of Christ looks like. That's what the temple looks like. You need that. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think that's a great way to get advice to give people. And, you know, the spiritual disciplines are good. I do remind people, you know, the first, three hundred years of the New Testament church, they didn't have access to a a bound leather Bible. You know, that wasn't and many Christians throughout history have been illiterate, and they found a way to walk faithfully with God. But they also met daily in the temple courts. So they did have access and scripture being read to them and It was a regular daily thing. it it was done in in community with people. Not everybody could read. And and in fact, this book itself, the Bible, it needs like you're doing here with this podcast, it needs a community to even understand and interpret it. God God, think about this, he could have made it where you could read the Bible on your own and not need anybody. He could have done that. I mean that that was within his realm of capability and power. But he chose to give us a book that go, we go, huh? What does this mean? Let's argue about it and talk about it because we need he wants a book that forces community. Jesus didn't write a book when he came. What did he do? He left behind a community. And then they wrote books, but but he left behind a community of people. This question comes from my heart because I hear it so often and I imagine people listening might be thinking it, I'm too far gone for God to forgive me, or I've been so bad or done things so wrong that I'm unforgivable. What advice would you have for that person who feels that way, discouraged, defeated? Yeah. You know, There is a strange and I wish there was a different word for it, but it's the word that that comes to mind is pride. But there's a strange twisted form of pride when we believe those lies. and I say that delicately because we often think of people who struggle with pride as these haughty, you know, arrogant, condescending jerks. and the last thing you want to tell somebody when they're hurting with that kind of shame and guilt and despair is that there are that kind of proud. And I'm not trying to use the word to describe it that way, because that's not what I'm trying to say. But there is a strange pride that looks into the eyes of a crucified Christ and and while he's gasping for air on the cross, giving everything he has, the the Father resolving within, you know, the triune God, the Father grieving the the giving up of his son, right? The the watching, you know, seeing his son go through that. Jesus willingly giving up his life, I mean, just laying it down himself for for you for your sin and looking into the eyes of Jesus and saying, Not enough. Not enough for me. Maybe good enough for them, but not enough for me. Not my sin. Not not my addiction. Not not the sheer volume of times I have, betrayed your your your your law. there's a weird form of pride there. There's a sense in which if you're asking for forgiveness for a sin that you committed at some point in your life for the hundredth time, you probably need to ask forgiveness for a different sin. And that sin is is pride. That Lord, I am sorry that I have held on to this lie, that my sin is too big for you. I confess that sin. Forgive me for that. even in Hebrews, there's a verse in there that really is kind of Hard to understand sometimes unless you have a whole picture of scripture. But there's a story it references in Genesis where Cain kills his brother Abel. And God comes to Cain in the moments afterwards, and he he asks Cain, you know, the question, Where is your brother? Which You know, again, God's Well it's it's so funny how God whenever he confronts me with my sin, it's always a question. he's so patient. if I had been party to someone doing that in my family, I would have come at them with exclamation points, not questions. But God He's patient and so he starts out with a question and Cain replies, you know, Am I my brother's keeper? You know, what do I know? And then God declares his his blood Abel's blood cries out for me from the dirt. And it's crying out injustice, right? It's crying out, I was murdered, that there was injustice. In Hebrews, the author of Hebrews references that story. But it says this, that Jesus' blood in the dirt, it speaks a better word. It it cries out, Justice has been served. And so what that reminds me and I I struggle with this too. Like we all drift into those places of thinking maybe maybe we've we've outsinned God's grace. But but that story and that verse in Hebrews that declares Christ's blood is crying out from the dirt. it's crying out justice. so what's happening is is actually God is I I want to be careful how I say this, but he is forgiving us. Because he can't punish us for the sin that we just did, because he already punished Christ for it. It would be injust. Think about this. it is injust for God to look at our sin, no matter how many times we failed him, even the same failure, and say, Well, this one, this one I need to punish you for. that it would be unjust. It's actually the justice of God that brings about the salvation for us and it's applied to us by faith. and it's a free gift of grace. So it's really when I when I do what I need to do, when I go through those seasons where I have to preach these little mini sermons to myself, I have to confess the sin of pride in my own sin. That my sin is somehow too big for God's love and too big for his grace. And then I also have to Recognize the theology that it is it is the justice of God that I am not going to pay for what I am confessing right now, because my life has been surrendered to Christ. Now, for the listener who is rejecting and doesn't want to go the route of Christ, then at at some point and you want to atone for your own sins, well, that judgment day will come and that is not God's desire for you. he knows that Price is too high and he wishes that none should perish that way. which is why he sent his son. so that is the gift of the cross, though, is to be able to say, the justice of God demands that I receive only forgiveness and not wrath for what I'm confessing right now. There is so much to the cross that we have oversimplified when it comes to Jesus died on the cross and on the third day rose from the dead and it's that simple, but it's also so much more. And it rivals me when you make the comment don't do this alone because you need people to help you understand it. And it's all the variations of the ways and the significance of what the cross means. That probably is the most profound thing that people have poured into my life. And you can't get tired of hearing it. Yeah. thank you for for the justice perspective, because that's that's a fresh view for me to hear. And hopefully others who may have that story just scripted in their mind because it's become so routine. that the meaning has never really fully yeah taken root in their hearts. Yeah. I used to think, you know, in in Hebrews it describes Jesus as this intercessor for us. And I used to picture it as like I would, pray, I'd say did confess my sin to Jesus. Say Jesus, I'm so sorry. I I did it again. The thing I told you I would never do again, I did. And then he is interceding for me on my behalf. So he goes to the Father and he says, Hey, Father, you got a minute? Yeah, I got a minute. It's it's me, Jesus. Hey, look, it's Brian. He's he's asking again for some more grace for the thing that he said he would never do, but he did it again. And he's just he's here and he wants he wants some more forgiveness. And technically this is number like three thousand and four for this one and and God's up there going, the father's going, gosh, well All right, tell you what, one more. We'll give one more. But tell this is it. It's the last one, right? And then Jesus and Jesus like pleading with the father, and there's this dissonance between them. And then Jesus comes down and he's like, All right, look, I I squeeze I wrung out a little bit more blood from the cross. I found some and some soil. I wrung it out a little bit more. And and we got just some forgiveness for that. Okay. But not again, never again, right? I used to see it but like that. And that's because we're so good at projecting earthly concepts of either parents or justice on God the divine who's holy And that's not reality. what it rather is, is it's Christ saying, Hey, that punishment for that sin that Brian's confessing, it's already paid. It's already covered. Here it's already been covered on the cross, here it is. And God's like, You're right, it's it would be unjust for us to issue another punishment on top of something we've already paid for. So, if the cross and the gospel is just grace and love alone, well it's no wonder why you'd pray and say, Well maybe I'm all out of it. But if it's justice, well then it's been paid. the ledger shows. It's paid. What would you tell someone who only had time to read one book of the Bible or maybe they're cracking that book open for the very first time? Maybe to help battle against their addiction, but specifically to be on that path toward walking with the Lord. it's so hard for me to pick one book. I was gonna say Psalms because it's got the gospel all over it, but it is also helpful for people who are mired in the the pain of addiction or even the pain of their own self destructive decisions. It's it gives them language to pray to God. You know, Psalms gives us words to God. but then the other book I would say, if I didn't go with my first choice, would be there's there's a part of me that's drawn toward Galatians when I was thinking about this, because that's a book where Paul is so eager to remind that church that what brought them into the salvation and forgiveness of God is what's gonna help them grow in it, and that is grace. it's not like you're saved by grace. Here's the keys, now it's all on you, don't ding it up. You know, here's the new car, don't ding it up. it's grace in the beginning, grace in the middle, and grace in the end. And Paul has a way of really challenging that church to not drift from that reality. As you said, the cross isn't just it's not just the necessary component to understanding salvation and then now growing in your faith is on something else. The cross is how you grow. Understanding the different attributes of the cross is how you grow. so Galatians would would be something that I think could anchor people and also be really helpful for their growth. So those are the two I was an honorable mention might be Romans, but that is I can hear people yelling at me for that because that's a very theologically dense book. But it has throughout history radically changed leaders and people when they read it. And I don't think Paul meant for it to be reserved for the theologian. I think he wants all of us to fall in love with Romans. So those are my answers to your to your question. I appreciate it. And thank you for mentioning Romans because that was where the rubber hit the road for me. Yeah. I was in numerous Bible studies, but once I hit Romans the lights came on. So it is a truly good book and The one I would want to be stranded on a deserted island with if I had to pick one. Yeah. Anything I didn't ask you about today, any advice you would want to leave before we put a close to this episode? No, I think Sarah, this is this is a very helpful ministry to people. I can see how you're trying to sanctify a word and redeploy it for a new meaning and new purpose in drawing people to God. with maybe all of the same tenacity that they were they were bringing to their, as you said, their drug of choice. So I think it's a noble cause and I think the essence of discipleship is to create worshipers who worship the creator rather than the created things. So I just applaud your heart. and God will God will He will use that. It is all God's and I'm showing up and just really sincerely trusting the Lord to reach the people He wants to reach through a message He put on my heart through the years that I've walked along really hurting people to the point where one of the verses that I've used as the cornerstone of this podcast is, with man it is impossible with God Nothing is impossible. And, God really set me back to say, get out of my way. If you think you're gonna be people's saviors and you're gonna give them the right answers and the right antidotes and the right, path to walk on or the proper, checklist to do it, he's like, You're doing them a disservice. It's really get out of my way. So this podcast is for him and for his glory. And I praise God for bringing good messengers to the to the conversation to close, I would love if you wouldn't mind just praying a brief prayer for the people who will hear this podcast, who might be drawn to seeking where they would go with what we've all talked about today. Yeah. Yeah, let's do that. Thank you. Heavenly Father, all we like sheep have gone astray. Each to our own ways. We have followed too much the devices and desires of our hearts. We have done things that we've ought not to have done, Lord, and we have left undone things that we ought to have done. But Lord, you you loved us, and while we were still in our sin, while we were still sinners, you declared forgiveness. You sent your son to die. And then Lord, maybe we've received that grace, we still continue to fall short, Lord. We're still dependent on you. So God, I pray that you would increase our dependence on you, that we would be more dependent on your grace and your forgiveness and your love and your power next year than this year, and the year after that. Lord, I just pray we would be more sensitive to sin, that we would be so keenly aware of how subtle it is, Lord. use this podcast, use relationships in our life to help us to spot where we're drifting, Lord. And then not only should we build defenses up, but Lord, give us such an insatiable, unquenchable appetite, Lord. You describe yourself as a fire, an unquenchable fire, grow a fire in our hearts, Lord, that can never be fully quenched. but seeks to consume more and more of you and your grace and your love and your presence in our life. We love you, Jesus, in your name we pray. Amen. Amen. And thank you so much, Pastor Brian, for joining me today. I will put show notes in the links and references you've given us and Friends, I am truly, truly thrilled to have you on this addicted to God journey, learning to trade every harmful addiction for the only one that truly satisfies, and that is Jesus Christ and his living word. If today's episode stirred something in you, would you please share it with someone who you know that is stuck or feeling hopeless? You never know how God might use it to spark freedom in their life. And I'd also love to hear from you. On Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, and Substack, you can find me at Sarah Annie Schneider. I'm also always looking for great guests, and Pastor Brian has been an incredible guest to join us today. If your life has been genuinely transformed by Jesus, and if you've experienced what it means to fully transfer your addiction to him, I'd love to hear your story. Email me at addicted to Godpod at gmail.com. And as we close, Remember, you are not defined by your past or your struggles. When you transfer your addictions to God, he becomes your one and only healthy addiction. So God bless you, friends. Fix your eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith. And we'll see you next week. And don't forget to choose the better addiction.