Jail Is Like Heaven? Meet Chaplain David Meyers (ep. 28)

Sarah Annie Schneider: Welcome to Addicted to God Podcast. I'm your host and Bible mentor, Sarah Schneider, and I am addicted to God. Addicted to God is a community of imperfect people who are pursuing a deeper, more intimate relationship with God. For over 20 years, I have been on my own Addicted to God journey. This movement was inspired by the hundreds of incarcerated women I have had the privilege of mentoring in my local jail. The more I learned about their addictive behaviors, the more I realized that my zeal to know God's word is not that different from their uncontrollable desire to use their drug of choice. So in a nutshell, addicted to God is where we transfer the unhealthy, unsatisfying, and destructive habits and choices to the freedom and fulfillment that can only come from the one and only healthy addiction, and that is God and his limitless words. I ask that you share this podcast simply so that we can end addictions, encourage the defeated, and help anyone who wants to have a relationship with God but doesn't know where to start. So let's get addicted to God together. Welcome friends. I am honored to have you joining me, and I am excited to introduce to this conversation my friend Jail Ministry Chaplain and Someone who has inspired me and continues to inspire me through the work he is doing in our local jail. As a matter of fact, in the ministry, he's my boss. So I am welcoming David Myers to the conversation. David, welcome to the Addicted to God Pod. Well, thank you for having me, Sarah. And I guess in other terms, you are my boss as the board member. So interesting how it works out that way, isn't it? Indeed. In ministry though, it doesn't feel like there's this hierarchy like a corporation would have. Even though I know legally and all the ways it falls into place, that's true. But we are brothers and sisters in Christ with a shared passion to reach more people and give them hope. So before we get into it, I always seem to want to jump right into the heart of the conversation, but we want the addicted to God Pod listeners to get to know you better. So please introduce yourself. And tell little bit about you. Yeah, sure. Again, I'm David Myers, chaplain at Fox Valley Jail Ministry, which serves at Audogamy County Jail here. And ⁓ I grew up in a small farming community, Chilton, Wisconsin. I was the middle of five children in our family, hardworking, typical farming ethics and morals. And I grew up in the church. And as I grew up, I realized that while I wanted to follow God very hard, I failed often. And I was very concerned about hell, the church that I was part of, and maybe just the environment that I was part of, I definitely felt a lot more worry and concern. But as I grew in faith and came to faith around age 20, a lot of those fears and some other things of a About me. I've been married for twenty one years now, have five kids, four boys and a girl, ranging from age eighteen, one going off to college right now, and ⁓ all the way down to five years old. So kind of across the board. I can imagine how each stage of it gives you another level of complexity. On top of ⁓ everything else that you have juggling with the jail ministry and other things you do for the Lord, right? In the kingdom. Yeah, I mean, even with parenting, I went in thinking I knew a lot, only to realize that I had a lot to learn and being humbled and being more in awe of my children and my wife and people in life, it's probably taught me more than anything just to be humble, to be appreciative, to love the different gifts that God gives us. Your story resembles so many, honestly, including my own, of growing up in a church and having that religious awareness, but not necessarily a relationship with Jesus Christ. So when did you come to know Jesus or how did God intersect in your story? Sure. I always thought I was putting God first, really intended to wanted to follow a lot of rules and do my absolute best and live by his law. And then kind of getting buried in that, to be honest, through failure and then secrecy and porn and any different things that I didn't know how to recover from. Like once you do wrong, how do you get right again? So just carrying a lot of weight and probably a lot of secrecy. And then around age twenty, through a campus ministry at UW Madison, very thankful. I remember hearing the gospel and I just sat there and I believed it. I believed it and all of a sudden like my heart was open. I just remember bawling. I fell to the floor. And just being so thankful. ⁓ I'm still recovering in belief, meaning I'm still trying to undo many of the past beliefs that were in me that were so deeply ingrained about earning and not being loved and law based type religion. But more and more and more every day it starts out like a mustard seed of faith and God's grace just keeps growing in you to the place where you believe more. And more and more and experience more and more salvation every day. So very thankful for that. And the assurance of that salvation that prior to having it with confidence, we always doubted. Yes. Or thought we had to earn it. Yes. I'm intrigued and want to understand what it was when you heard the gospel that one time that was different than all the times that you heard it in your upbringing. Yeah. That's what's so interesting, because the church that I attended, I have gone back and continued to attend it from time to time. And I realized the gospel message is presented there. It's in the readings, it's in the teaching, it's in the talking. I don't know what it is. It may just have been the spirit. So one may have been delivered a bit more factually, and another may have been delivered with more. Heart and love and compassion and that spirit opened my heart and it became a safe place where I could believe and open up about my struggles, my life, the reality of who I was, and allow darkness of unbelief within me to meet light. Yes. And you know, that's a great reminder honestly, as you're talking, it's convicting me to realize that when we're growing up in a church, we would call it organized religion or we would call it law based or rule based. Perhaps in our youth and our misunderstanding, we may not understand that the gospel is there and that we really are being shepherded appropriately. Right. But The old saying goes, When the student is ready, the teacher will appear. Amen. It takes me to the parable of the soil, actually, where the farmer is, and I don't exactly know in scripture where that is. If you do, I'd love you to point us to it. Yeah, I think it's in a couple of places. I think it's in Mark chapter four. I think it's also in Matthew. Yeah. I'll I'll look it up and put it in the show notes. But The parable of the soil, you know, the farmer comes out and he just sows the seed. And so there are so many farmers in our lives, throughout our lives, that drop little seedlets to your point, a mustard seed of faith that possibly could have started when you were a child because you knew the right from wrong or the desire to be good versus bad. And that but potentially was our intellectual capacity to comprehend it at that point. But then you're in college. And you're hearing it in a new, fresh way, possibly from somebody you haven't heard it from a million times. Kind of like the parent. Amen. You tell your kids to do something, they don't listen, but a stranger comes along and they're perfectly compliant. Yes. And so I love that. And I the reason I particularly wanted to just hone in on that a bit deeper is not only from my own conviction that we weren't ready to hear it, but also on the other end of it, which is is there a magic word? Because I do. strive to give the gospel in this podcast in so many ways that even I feel like I'm being repetitive, but I try to do it in a way that the listener might hear it in a fresh new way. Sure on this episode versus the next. I think one of the important things you asked why may I not have heard it earlier and I responded by saying that maybe the spirit was different. I think what was mixed with prior messages that I heard was a lot of condemnation. Yes. And with condemnation, a person's mind closes off because they become afraid of judgment. So if there's gonna be judgment on the other end, then you just close yourself off. And you don't let anybody get to know you. You don't open your heart. Even though the words that somebody's saying might be there, unless the true heart and spirit of the gospel is there, I think it's hard for a person to receive it with truth. Yeah, you're spot on with that one. And as you're talking, it's also reminding me that We won't run toward fear. So if condemnation is the message, you're going to hell because you are a sinner and shame on you, you're not good enough for heaven, therefore your only option is the alternative. Why would we want that? But we don't understand that we can't change ourselves to get that either. Yes. Isn't that called fire and brimstone? Yes. You wanna pray to go to heaven because you don't want to go to hell versus here's what heaven has for you. Yeah, and it's amazing how one opens you up, brings a smile, makes you feel good and draws you out of where you were. And how the other closes you off and unfortunately can keep you where you are, because I think what God's trying to do is draw us into a relationship with him. But if we're closed off and distrusting, it's very hard to have that relationship. And I think God not only wants it with him, he wants it with people. A lot of our healing He says, you know, even in the word it says, confess your sins to one another that you might be healed. And I think a lot of our healing comes from being able to trust other people. And to receive that in life is such a gift to have safe people around you that you can open up to so that you don't have to carry all these burdens within ourselves. Yes, and we see that in the jail. So tell me, how did God put you? into Fox Valley jail ministry, what path did it take for him to plant you in Otagimi County jail? Well, your question was spot on because you said what did it take for God to do it? It was definitely God who put me there, which is one of the things that I reflect on if there's ever difficult times. It's I know that this is where God wants me to be because apart from him this really would not have happened. I don't have any background, any education as far as being a chaplain. I never went to any Bible school or theology school and I wasn't even searching for this. I'm an accounting major, worked in the business world, ran back office for places, and I even owned companies for a number of years. And everything started to go wrong. Whereas prior everything was kind of golden in my life. Valedictorian. ⁓ you're good looking. ⁓ you're good at sports. You're it's kind of like what Paul says, eventually you come to learn the Lord and you're like, ⁓ it's all garbage. It doesn't count for anything compared to knowing the Lord. ⁓ all right. But you were meeting the world standards. ⁓ yeah. And and then all of a sudden everything fell apart. Everything that I touched that had turned to gold. Business isn't working. Losing money. I'm having relationships. troubles, really bad ones. I'm not the person I thought I was. I thought I was gonna be more relational with my kids. What's going on here? So just having so many challenges in my life, where it literally felt like everything I had was being stripped and taken away from me. It's because they were my idols. There were things that I had Put ahead of God. And I could tell because I had placed my security in them. And when they weren't there anymore, became very desperate, very controlling, very needy, very scared. But in this period, I had nowhere else to search. And a foundation had been laid in my life through my parents and community of faith. And I just fell to my knees and I started reading the Bible for. Hours every day. I was just devouring it. I could not get enough of it. Old Testament, New Testament, it didn't matter. And every single word that I was reading is like coming off the pages. And I'm like, he's talking about me. He's talking about me. He's talking about me. Repent. Change. Turn to new life. And I just got hungry, like desperately hungry. But life situations didn't change right away. I continued down this path and I tried to teach people. That didn't work well. God wanted me to live it, but learn that later in life. So I just continued praying and really had my hands open. I said, Lord, what do want? What do you want? And that was kind of my prayer for two years. And it wasn't answered other than everything was being stripped first. And I got this internal feeling that I was supposed to be going to a jail. Or prisons and that I was supposed to be helping men. So I reached out to a few pastors that I knew who had been visiting jails, prisons. And every time I called them, they said, ⁓ I'm not doing that anymore. Thanks for calling. Or I'd try another door and that door would be closed. But one day we were trying to get rid of our business, just trying to hand it off to a marketing company really to run it and trying to offer large amounts of money. And one of the guys that I was interviewing, he said, You know, I don't think we'd be the best company for you. And I said, Okay. Can you tell me a little bit about your life? Nobody doesn't take a lot of money when it's being offered to them. He said, Well, I was in jail. And I just found a different way. And that's not all that important. And ⁓ I said, That's really funny. I said, 'Cause just this morning I felt again very strongly like I'm supposed to be in the jail. And he said, Well, if you want to know the current chaplain, I'll let you know. I didn't even know there was a Fox Valley Jail Ministries. And ⁓ so I reached out to the chaplain at the time, and ⁓ they had kind of an interview process, an hour-long interview process, get to know you to make sure that you don't have any weird, far-off beliefs. And Even as a volunteer, I went through that. Yeah, exactly. So as I was talking to the current chaplain, when we got to the end, he said, I think you should have my job. And the hair on my arms and neck stood up because I knew it was from the Lord. And he said, But the board's been looking to hire somebody for a while. They feel like they haven't found the right person. They're gonna be done interviewing in about three days. You'd have to get your application in. I immediately called my wife, told her about it. ⁓ she said, What the heck? We've already lost all of our money in the business, can't lose any more money. There's your supportive spouse. No, I say that sarcastically. Cause she was saying it sarcastically. What she said at the end of that is if that's what God's calling you to, how could I possibly stand in the way? Wow. And she was very supportive because Together we had lost everything and then we were looking at taking a non profit salary and it's been a big sacrifice for her and she has been very supportive in it. So I got home and I said to God, I've tried to control and manage everything in life and up to a certain point it had worked, but I'm tired of that. I said, if this is meant to be it's gonna be a view, I will submit the most basic resume and most basic. basic cover letter. And if it's a view, it'll be a view. And if it's not, it's not. But I don't need to manipulate this situation or control it. Well the board reached out to me and said we'd like to interview you. So Which I wasn't on the board at that time. No, you were on the box. This is interesting. So I didn't know this. Yeah. So I went in to the interview and they asked me questions. They interviewed me. They asked me some challenging questions, how I would respond. If inmates asked me this or this or this, how would you respond? And I just answered as truthfully as I possibly could without trying to impress anybody. And they called me later and said you're hired. So I have no schooling, no education, had never been in a jail before and God opened the door. I mean, that gives me chills because there is no question that that is God. Yeah. And I I can relate because you know, God gave me the addicted to God Pod. I'm like, not me. Right. Not me. I'm not a seminary graduate, a theologian. I just a girl who loves Jesus. And he's like, Yeah. You're perfect. Exactly. Exactly. You're perfect. So so here you are now. You're the new chaplain of Fox Valley Jail Ministries, completely self. disciplined in the credentials in essence of the Bible knowledge needed. What was the biggest surprise when you started to meet with the people in jail? And that can be a loaded question because the for me, one of the surprises was the bone chilling slamming of the doors and the rattling of the keys. But then there is the intimidation that I felt in an environment that was new to me, foreign, completely foreign and scary. What was surprising to me as I say this to many people, it's like heaven. It's the most relational place that I've ever been. Hardly anybody is guarded because everybody's at their bottom. And the second that I walk in the room to talk to somebody, they're completely open, their hearts open. They're telling me about their life, their whole story. They're open to help and to receiving it. And it is so Easy to help because, like you said in the soil parable before, their soil is so soft and you share good news with them and they just want to follow you. You're giving them hope, real hope. Yeah. And they're finding friendship. They're finding a relationship. And so it's easy for them to start believing that relationship is possible with God because they're actually experiencing it in their life. And one of the things that I found is the reason why I believe most people are where they're at in the jail is simply because a lack of that in their life before. So they're lacking what they really need relationship, love, care, a place where they can just be themselves and be good, be okay. They didn't have that. So they've been trying to find that everywhere, and of course One of the common things between drugs, alcohol, sex, shopping, porn, all of them at first give you the The aha let down feeling. Yeah. And then through the word of God, trying to teach them how they can find the With being present with God. Mm-hmm. I've seen it and it's miraculous. You can walk up to somebody on the street and say, Can I talk to you about Jesus? And they treat you like you're crazy. Yes. And you walk into that ministry room and you say, Why did you invite me to visit with you today? How can I help? Yep. And the floodgates open. Yep. And the vulnerability is poured out and the environment is safe and nonjudgmental. And for the first time in their life they're realizing there's a lifeline in front of me who has the answers to the problems I have never been able to find the answers to. Yes. And one of the other major benefits of the jail is a lot of the world is very what the Bible would describe as worldly, transactional. Yeah. Our relationships with people are what time can you send this email? Can you get this money to me? Are you gonna transfer this? It's are you a good employee? Are you meeting the standards? The expectations are exceeding them. Yes, it's about like managing and controlling the world rather than abiding in it and taking care of it and seeing it and loving it. So in the jail, their home's gone, their money's gone, their wife is gone. Their kids are gone. Their credit is gone. The reputation is gone. They've lost everything. The dignity is gone. Yes. And when they can come to a point of fully accepting that, what's left is themselves with God. Mm-hmm. Because the distractions are taken away. The greatest challenge that most face is returning to the world where now they can access everything again. And obviously the prayer is that people will be very deeply rooted and established before they go back. But like all of us, we fail. ⁓ yes. Praise God for the good news that we can repent, turn back to Him, to His Grace and His Mercy, and receive what we really need. I obviously work with the women's side of the jail. We're prohibited from crossing over to work with other genders. You get the privilege of being able to serve anybody because of the access the jail gives you. I tend to emphasize in this podcast that I'm a mentor to women because that's that's where I've been for the last decade plus. What is it like in the male side of the jail? How is it different? I'd love to hear some of the stories of your experiences with the men. One of the things I love about working with the men in the jail, I said it's a lot like heaven because the guard is dropped. Men in the world, I don't know why, but we have a persona of being macho, having it all together, knowing it can't be wrong. And in that I think it prevents the ability to have a relationship, a real one, an authentic one with other men. And in the jail it seems like that's not there. Now granted, we're only working with the people who have asked for help. So it's definitely in the jail, but in terms of the people that we are working with, they've all had an opportunity to meet one on one and be trusting. So when you come together as a group, there's a lot of hugs. There's a lot of let downness. There's a lot of brokenness that God is using to help be there for other people, where the inmates themselves are being the hands and feet of Christ because who understands better the suffering and the pain that other inmates are going through? And those who are going through it themselves. And just through the word of maybe being taught a little bit about how do you respond to your situation, it allows them to look outside of themselves and see other people and really just be wonderful instruments for Christ. How do you open up that conversation with them? Because I'm assuming you do meet some that are still in that tough guy state of mind or feeling like they're still in control. Or do they come to you broken like Many of the women have come to me and you don't really have that confrontation. Most are broken. A good ninety-five percent probably are at that place already, very moldable, shapeable, teachable. The ones that are continuing to hold on to all the things on the outside and holding on to the persona, the image, still holding on to the world or what I need. I really don't try to change them. That may sound weird. Of course I want them to change and experience something different, but I simply allow them to be where they're at. I ask them questions, and probably more than anything I try to be a loving presence. And even in the Word, Jesus when he sends out his apostles two by two, he says, Look for one worthy. Now that might sound weird. Isn't everybody worthy? He in fact mentions that a couple of times. But I think what he's saying is he's saying you're not gonna be able to change everything. Look for the soil. Look for people who are receptive, who are open that you actually 'cause I could meet with those same people, pour my same love into them, but if they're not open to receiving love and if that's not what they're looking for, it won't affect them at all. So I may as well go and take my life and the love that I'm carrying and the desire to help and give that to somebody who is at a place where they're ready. And truth be told, I wasn't ready. For a very long time in my life. I had a lot of people that tried to help me, but I wasn't ready. And you kind of said that earlier that sometimes the teacher appears when the student is ready. And I know that the ultimate teacher is God. And that He will bring them to a place where they are ready and able to hear. And as the word says, some some plant, some water, some fertilize. ⁓ but it's God that's gonna do the increase. So maybe at that time I'm just being a loving presence, dropping a word to them, and it will be somebody else who harvests five years later. And you have been our chaplain for how many years? Almost a decade now. Exactly. So as long as I've been there, you've been chaplain. I have Dozens of women just coming to my mind or popping into my mind as we're talking because I'm identifying similar paths I've witnessed on the female side. Is there a story or two or an inmate or two that has been powerfully impressionable that you've seen transformed, or I should say that God transformed and you had the privilege of witnessing? Yeah, for sure. In fact, they're the ones that almost have more impact on you. True. You think that you're there to help and to serve, and you are, but some of the people grasp it so strongly and with such belief that you can tell by the contentment, by the spirit that the person is carrying, even by the way they literally put their arm on your shoulder to give you comfort that they have really grasped the gospel. And really, as the word says, they're no longer in need of a teacher. that they have a teacher and it's been given to them and it's the Holy Spirit. And yeah, I mean I'm thinking of a young man, thirty-two, ⁓ ended up facing twenty years in prison for a bad choice, which he himself knows about, but in many ways had surpassed early on where I was at. And it was so cool to watch him through his presence be a teacher through his presence and his spirit to other people. And those back in the block, his acceptance, his compassion, his nonjudgment, his just facing suffering, going through it all. And I think, Wow, you're really rooted and you're really grounded. Yeah. It you know there's a transformation or a change taking place when you first meet with them and they are scared that their future is facing prison and the consequences of their bad choices for a long, long time. And yet through the times or the sessions that you meet and you see the growth within them that they actually look forward to it because God has just got ⁓ in a place where it's like, I'm gonna go to prison, I'm gonna grow more, I'm gonna spend all day with the Lord. And then I have followed a couple to prison to actually see it. Where they are ministering to their roommates and they're on fire and they're building a business plan almost for what they're gonna do when they get out of prison for the Lord. Yeah. There's no greater testimony than peace. ⁓ I love that peace. Yes. And when people have peace from meeting the Lord and they go back to their block, people literally do come up and ask them for the reason for the hope that is within them. Yes. They're like, You're facing the same thing I am, brother. And how are you so trying to In fact, worse. How are you okay? Yes. And then they have the opportunity to tell ⁓ Always be ready to give a reason. Yeah, first Peter three, I think, or Peter sixteen. Good verses. I you're absolutely right. And it's powerful. And their testimony, their transformation speaks louder than their words. Like they are not instant overnight Bible scholars. All of a sudden they're coming into my one on ones telling me about how they are reading the Bible with somebody because the person in their pod said, What are you reading? Right. And what is that teaching you? Or no, I don't wanna participate in the gossip that's taking place in this pod. I'm not gonna go there or No, I'm not gonna turn my podmate in for stealing my crackers. She obviously needed it more than I did, kind of thing. And there's so much shenanigans in the jail. It's almost like they've changed when they don't participate or succumb to the pressures. Yes. That was also something that was pretty cool to witness. It's always encouraging because it gives you a lot of hope that when they leave the jail and face the world, the challenges that they are ready. And that leads me to my next question because this is something I'm very intentional about when I'm meeting with the women is to say it's one thing for us to have sessions and for me to be available to you here, but I wanna make sure you are prepared to face the real enemy outside of these walls. What does that conversation look like for you with your inmates? I think it's just the ongoing teaching. So I do a lot more Bible study than I do one on ones and I really trust God's word because I've experienced its power in my own life. I know that when I stray, I need to return back to his presence and be as close as I possibly can to him. And I know that they're gonna be going out into the world when they get out. And I even know that when they're in the jail, they're gonna be facing a lot of potential to have anxiety. Where where am I gonna live? Where am I gonna get a job? Is my family gonna accept me again? Am I gonna get my wife back? What if I never see my kids again? There's a chance while they're in the jail to dwell on things that are not going to help them. So we really, really try to face the difficult things without sugarcoating them and deal with life. And we try to teach them Jesus' word about anyone that wants to follow me must give up everything. And I try to encourage them in the good news of that. about he's not trying to lead you to a bad life. He's trying to lead you to peace. He's trying to lead you to calm. He's trying to lead you to a centeredness where you can handle the storms of life. And he also tells us things like your heavenly father already knows what you have need of before you ask him. Therefore this is how you should pray our Father and as we know that prayer it has a lot to do about doing his will. So we know that the more that we take the focus off of where am I going to live? What's going to happen with this situation? Am I going to get five years or two years? Those are only going to lead you to anxiety, fear, worry, disappointment. Disappointment. But if you focus on the word of God and you hear the still small voice and you follow him, he promises that he's going to lead us to a good pasture. And that's what I keep trying to reinforce to them about the wonderful fruits that God promises to the promised land of people who want to follow him, things of love and joy and peace and patience and kindness and goodness and gentleness and faithfulness and self-control. And we have that hanging in the Bible study room and I'll point to it and I'll say, I know that if I ask any of you, would you want these in your life, you would say, Yes. Mm-hmm. I said, what would you now give in exchange for peace? And all the eyes kind of roll like, I know what you're saying. Cause they're worried or they're anxious. But the more and the longer that they stay in Bible study, stay focused on God's word, the more by their own testimony they will say, It's amazing the peace I have now three months later after being here. Yeah. And it's interesting you bring up the fruit of the spirit because Clearly, that is the evidence of the Holy Spirit being in us. I was pointed to Galatians chapter five recently that reads really interesting, and I'm going to read it because it is to me the most descriptive example of what I am and who I was, to who I am and who God is. And so starting at chapter five, verse 19, it says, The acts of the flesh are. Obvious, sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery, idolatry and witchcraft, hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, actions, and envy, drunkenness, orgies, and the like. Paul says, I warn you as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God, but the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace. Patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control. Against these things there is no law. Those who belong to Jesus Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. And since we now live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit, let us not become conceited, provoking, and envying each other. I think those verses sum it up perfectly. Amen. So what advice would you have to someone listening to this who feels like they're too far gone? Maybe they didn't sit in the jail cell like the men and women we're talking about are literally sitting in jail confronted with their choices. I'm thinking about the person who's sitting there thinking, Yeah, I gambled my life away. I worked so hard, I lost my relationship with my wife, my kids, or I let a drug, an alcoholic Beverage or a worldly passion control me. And they're in their prison of their own in a unique way. Yeah. I would say, first of all, know that you're not alone. Every single person is in that because the only one that's ever been perfect is Jesus. So to some degree, everybody is struggling with some sort of a verse that you just read about selfish ambition. Yeah. To some degree, we're all in that process of crucifying the flesh. And I think the more open you are about it, the more humble you are about it, where you just face the reality and you're able to look at yourself as the word says, to examine yourself to see whether you be in the faith, not in a condemning way or a judging way, but in a truthful way where you allow the light to hit you. And maybe you're not the person that you wish that you would be. Believe the good news that you can repent and you can turn to God and his promise to us is that you'll receive grace. And mercy and forgiveness at his altar. And that's a cool thing. But I would say beyond that, and you see this in a lot of recovery groups, one of the benefits that God has given us, He said in the beginning, it's not good for man to be alone. We have each other. And the more that we open up about who we really are, the good, the bad, the ugly. The more something else can get inside. I know for myself, as I said earlier, I was working so hard to become good that I couldn't open myself up to something greater than I was. And it wasn't until I confessed God's word, which is I'm not a good person. I haven't been a good person. I have done multiple things wrong. It was at that point that I could actually receive mercy and forgiveness. But when I was holding on to an image, either with my wife, with my kids, with my job, with society, I wanted people to see me a certain way. And until I could let down and be honest about myself, I couldn't really receive the healing that I needed. So that would be my encouragement to people. And what I hear you saying brings me b to a verse in First Corinthians chapter thirteen, verse five. This lady knows her Bible. No, I'm looking it up and actually ⁓ correction. It leads me to Second Corinthians chapter thirteen verse five. This lady doesn't know her b I'm kidding. Exactly. All right, I got it right those times. Second Corinthians. Wonderful. Chapter 13, verse 5. And it jumped off the page. And that's why my mind went to it as you were talking. And it says, Examine yourselves to see if you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not realize Christ is in you? Unless, of course, you fail the test. And those words. Examine yourselves, test yourselves to see if you are in the faith really kind of goes to the bones of n denying yourself and being honest with yourself that you can put good across your forehead as much as you want, but when you're in the examination mode, you know that the soul of your soul. Yeah. You're not there. I wanna share one quick thing on that, Sarah. So growing up in a church, I examined myself regularly and I knew that. I had to change. ⁓ my goodness, I better do this better. And I never had any rest because I was examining myself, but I wasn't seeing if I was in the faith. Right. Meaning the faith of the gospel. As he says in Galatians about like who has bewitched you, Galatians? You came to faith. How? Simpling the good news that God loves you and He's forgiven you. It wasn't through the law. Don't go back to the old. Whereas the whole Time in my past, I would read that verse as I better improve, I better get better. I did wrong. I'm examining myself. But I was examining myself according to the law. And I wasn't putting on the wedding clothes that Christ was offering me in the parable that he talks about, where all of the guests were given clothes. And we have been given the clothing of Christ's righteousness over us. And whenever I find myself like the Galatians slipping back into the ⁓ I'm examining myself. I've been worried. I better And now I better let go. Mm-hmm. And I better trust God and I better let Him work in me. And I better allow Him to overcome the battles that are in my life. You're reminding me that it's individual. It is not anything you or I say or anything you or I do. The Lord meets each and every one of us where we are at at the time that we need him or cry out to him. I think that we try so hard to manufacture what that would look like. And a lot of people do that. They struggle with earning their way, being good enough, doing all the right things. And inevitably we will miss the mark every single time. Yeah. And I'm very sensitive. As a matter of fact, one of the reasons I I challenged the Lord when he called me to launch this podcast was Where I'm stuck, Lord, is I know you can save people and you do save people. You are their savior. So how do I help them to desire that relationship with you without me telling them all the things they need to do to have a relationship with you? Do you know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely. And maybe that goes back to a question you asked earlier about what if I were to meet with a person who isn't as open, who isn't as broken, isn't as receptive and One of the things I've learned, as I said, is to let them. Life has a way of teaching us because as we stray from God, it is its own consequence. God is our peace. He is our joy. He is our contentment. And if we are not letting go of the other things to experience his grace, his mercy, at least for myself, that's what draws me back to him. I realize where am I going? What am I doing? Immediately return to what is good. And that's you know, it's cool Bible verses that go along with it. Like it's the Lord's kindness that draws us to repentance. And once you taste and see that the Lord is good, why wouldn't you wanna be around what's good? Right. It becomes natural. You said before that nobody wants to move towards fear or shame or condemnation. Condemnation or you have to do this, you better improve. But when somebody's just sitting there with open arms wanting to give you a hug and is very safe, it's a pretty good place to go to. Yeah. When I teach Bible studies to the groups of women, one of the topics I enjoy bringing to conversation is what does surrender? Mean. And they're in jail. So they know they've had to surrender. They've had to surrender to authorities. They've had to surrender their will. They've had to surrender their lives. But I'm trying to take that example of you're here against your will because you've had to give up and surrender to the consequences you're facing. Surrender to God is giving up willingly and willfully because what He has for you is good. Amen. It's not. Because he has this big gavel that he's gonna throw a consequence on you and bang you up for for messing up. He is embracing you. But it takes that willful surrender. Surrendering to being loved. Yeah. Yeah. And we try to I think that's that's a good thing. You were using the phrase let it ⁓ down. Or just release it and let it go. And it's that's the surrender, right? It's just be. ⁓ my goodness, that's awesome. I want to take the conversation to a parental perspective for a quick second. We established we're both parents. You described life is gonna be our best teacher and you don't have to get involved or intervene because they're going to figure it out. Right. Parents of incarcerated feel like a failure. And that is a really difficult place. I've had many conversations with parents who say, My my son is in jail, my daughter's in jail. Can you help them? I've failed as a parent and that parent is feeling the weight of their child's bad decisions and choices. What advice would you have for the person in that place of disappointment, sadness, fear? I can only imagine the label. I I guess I shouldn't even try to put a word on it. I think even beyond that, so for instance, Jesus says anyone who hasn't been set free yet and is still a slave to sin is still a slave. They're still in bondage. So whether it's somebody who's a parent to an incarcerated person or someone who's simply a parent to somebody who's not following, both I think if they're dealing with the heart or dealing with the same issue, ⁓ the Bible says that I have no greater joy than to see that my children are walking in the truth. And as Parents, we try to do our best to help our kids and we try to raise them in the truth, but we fail because we're not perfect. And I think the harder we push people to change and to improve and to get better, the more closed off they often become. But the more that we practice what Jesus really seemed to an unconditional acceptance. It seemed as if when I read the gospels, the only people that Jesus seems to have great challenges with are the people who are judging other people. He didn't seem to go around pointing out people's sin constantly, even though he could have. He knew everybody's Sin and he could have been, You're a liar, you're a jerk, you have an anger problem. Stop it, get better, improve. Instead, he just walks into the world. Yeah. With light. And he loves people, teaches them, tries to point them in a right direction. And I know for myself, the harder people push on me, the more closed off I get. But the more that I just receive a safe place, eventually my hard headedness tends to soften a little bit. And I become open to who they are. And sometimes they don't even have to share a word with me. I can see it. I'm not an idiot. And I think God built his truth into all of us. And I think people know love when they feel it. And they also know pushiness or condemnation or subtle judgment, maybe not spoken judgment, but a spirit that's feeling the judgment that's there. So my recommendation to any parent. Who's feeling guilt is to just go back to the verse we said earlier about examining ourselves. I know in my broken relationships, even when other people have done wrong and they're the problem, the relationship's actually been restored when I've examined myself to see what role I've played and to simply apologize to them. And I think that often speaks more than any sort of teaching. It's the living the teaching. And They themselves then tend to open up and turn toward me and they apologize for what they have done because it's safe again. And I'd also say, don't beat yourself up. We have good parents and we make mistakes. Yes. Like it is not the parents' fault. And the reason I say that is because who could be a more perfect parent than God Himself and we rebelled against God? And look at us. Why would we turn away from the entire source of goodness? But we do. So even a perfect parent will have people who fail. True. Absolutely. Thank you for that. There's a lot of wisdom there, and I think a lot of people will be encouraged. I also like to learn other people's spiritual disciplines. So I'd love to hear what your daily walk with the Lord looks like. Sure. It really is a daily walk. I try not To stop connection with the Lord. It's not like I try to have a morning time and then I go to work. I try with everything in me to abide every second of the day with the Lord. Again, why would I want to leave what's good? I love his presence. I love him with me. He guides me and he takes care of everything in life. I've learned that, that I don't have to focus on all of the other things. They are secondary. And yes, we have things in life that we do, but doing them with him, in his presence, in his calm is the most important thing to me. Now life's very full. And even as Jesus was with people and was abiding, he eventually left people. Rent away to the quiet place. So yes, I tried to leave the craziness. And what's very important to me is I love nature. So I try to do a daily walk and spend as much time with him as I can in silence, just being with him. I call that creation meditation. I love it. And from there he fills my cup. Yeah. And then I'm stronger to be able to go back and hopefully serve and help. I love to send listeners equipped with resources. I often make resource recommendations in my podcast. Do you have any books, Bible studies, or tools that you have considered to be especially helpful to you or you refer people too often? The greatest thing that I have ever found is the Bible. Don't mean to be a downer on anything else because I know that wonderful things work through it all, but I only have so much time in my day, which means I'm only gonna be able to choose to read book A, book B, or the Bible. And I used to do a lot. I would read so many books every year and now I've really centered on I like this one. I love that. So I just try to go verse by verse through the Bible and try to meditate on it. And what does meditate look like? Do you have a formula like what is God teaching me? What am I learning about God? How does this apply to my life? Is there a formula or is it just you're taking the words for what they are and processing them? His word is amazing. Actually I was just reading it this morning with the guys in Bible study where he says that he's gonna give us the advocate, the counselor, and that advocate, the Holy Spirit, is gonna remind us of all of the words that he's ever spoken. And I will be on my own or with a group and words just start coming out. Not prepared. I'm not one who knows that is second Peter one eight. But I know roughly where it is. I just know it's in there. And probably what's more important is that the word of God is dwelling within me because it guides me. So I I don't pride myself on I know eighteen thousand verses I've memorized. I try to remain with the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit will bring all of his words into remembrance, specifically when I need them. And if I find myself straying or struggling, a certain verse just comes right in. To the mind. A very common one is First Corinthians thirteen. Many people know that one. But I just will repeat that verse over and over that love is patient. Love is kind. It doesn't envy and go on and on, but it would take a while. And I just repeat it over and over slowly to myself. Love it. In closing, I'd love for you to paraphrase in your words what being addicted to God means or looks like to you. It looks like what we talked about earlier, that God is so good. To abide in his presence is and to do that deeply and richly, it's so amazing that I don't want to be anywhere else. So to be addicted to God, what at first was a challenge to give up all the things of the world. And are you kidding me? I have to do it now. I'm like That's the very thing that is separating me from being with him. So I want to throw them away and to just abide with him. So being addicted to God, I guess, came through practice of walking in his presence and learning you are good and refreshing and loving and I want to be as close as I can to you. Yeah. Thank you so so much. So I'm gonna put a close on this episode, but everything you've shared has been For me, insightful, inspiring, encouraging. I'm proud of you. I love how God is using you in your family and in your lives and in the ministries and how many lives you've touched. I hope I get to witness your entrance into heaven to be able to see the number of people whose lives have been touched by the seeds you've sprinkled or the literal boulders you've been able to give them and hand them for transformation. And I appreciate you being on this addicted to God journey with me. Thank you. And I would love to add this. And please don't edit this, Sarah. Okay. You're wonderful at what you do. As you said earlier, God gives us different gifts and I would not be able to do what you do. It takes way too much quick thinking and way too much conversational skill. And you have that and you're very conversational and you're great at drawing out the best parts. So I would just say keep doing what you're doing. All those years that I got in trouble for talking in class did they not know it was God's gift? So thank you, friends. ⁓ this is the point in the podcast where I just want to remind everybody listening that this is not the end of your story. This is the beginning of your rescue. If today's episode stirred something in you or someone came to mind as you were listening, would you please share anyone stuck or is feeling hopeless? And if that's not you. I assure you there's someone out there. You never know how God might use it to speak freedom into their lives. And I'm also looking for guests. I just launched this week the new AddictedToGod Pod dot com website. I would love for you to go out there and give me a review and help me get the message out about addicted to God. And there's a lot of other exciting things happening in the addicted to God space and the Sarah Annie Schneider space. So check me out on Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, and Substack. If you've had your life transformed by Jesus, I want to hear your story. You can email me at theaddicted to Godpod at gmail.com. And as we close, I want you to remember you're not defined by your past or your struggles. When you transfer your addictions to God, He becomes your one and only healthy addiction. So God bless you. Fix your eyes on Jesus, the author and perfector of your faith. And I'll see you next week. Don't forget to choose the better addiction.